Life & Times Tonight Transcripts -

October 1999 & 2001 & May 2002

IN TONIGHT'S THINKERS, SHAKERS & NEWSMAKERS, WE MEET A BUDDHIST MONK WHO WAS BORN IN THE MIDWEST AND RAISED AS A LUTHERAN. KNOWN SIMPLY AS KUSALA, HE WAS ORDAINED 6 YEARS AGO WHEN HE GRADUATED FROM THE COLLEGE OF BUDDHIST STUDIES HERE IN LOS ANGELES, AND HE'S NOW WITH THE INTERNATIONAL BUDDHIST MEDITATION CENTER IN LOS ANGELES.

WARREN>> THE NUMBER OF BUDDHIST CENTERS IN AMERICA HAS DOUBLED TWICE IN THE PAST 15 YEARS. THE DALAI LAMA, WHO IS THE SPIRITUAL LEADER OF TIBETAN BUDDHISTS, HAS TWO BOOKS ON THE BEST SELLER LIST, AND HIS FIVE-DAY VISIT TO SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA THIS WEEK IS DRAWING THE TYPE OF MEDIA ATTENTION NORMALLY RESERVED FOR ROCK STARS.

VAL>> AND REVEREND KUSALA JOINS US NOW TO TALK ABOUT THE SIGNIFICANCE OF THE DALAI LAMA'S VISIT. THE THING THAT STRIKES ME IS, LOS ANGELES WHICH IS THE MECCA OF SELF-ABSORBED, EGO-DRIVEN, CELEBRITY-OBSESSED, CONSPICUOUS CONSUMPTION --

WARREN>> -- BUT YOU LIKE IT --

VAL>> (LAUGH) -- IS GOING CRAZY FOR THE DALAI LAMA. IS THIS SOME STRANGE ATTRACTION OF THE OPPOSITES, PERHAPS?

REV. KUSALA>> UH, IT COULD BE -- BUT I THINK WHAT THE DALAI LAMA TALKS ABOUT IS SUFFERING AND THE END OF SUFFERING. AND IT SEEMS TO ME THAT A LOT OF PEOPLE IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA, AS WELL AS EVERYWHERE, ARE DISSATISFIED WITH THEIR LIFE, AND BUDDHISM HAS SOMETHING TO SAY ABOUT THAT.

VAL>> SOUTHERN CALIFORNIANS RELATE TO SUFFERING, IN A SENSE?

REV. KUSALA>> I THINK THEY DO, AND I THINK THEY RELATE TO THE END OF SUFFERING IN AN EVEN GREATER WAY. YOU KNOW THIS SORT OF ME GENERATION THING, OF JOINING HEALTH SPAS AND GETTING INVOLVED WITH SELF - HELP GROUPS TO TRY AND WORK OUT WHAT IT MEANS TO BE A HUMAN BEING. AND HERE WE HAVE SOMEBODY COMING FROM A TRADITION THAT'S VERY, VERY OLD, SAYING I CAN HELP YOU END YOUR SUFFERING.

VAL>> AND WHAT DOES -- I KNOW BUDDHISM IS TERRIBLY COMPLEX AND NUANCED, BUT WHAT IS THE BASIC MESSAGE ABOUT SUFFERING?

REV. KUSALA>> THE BASIC MESSAGE ABOUT SUFFERING IS -- WE SUFFER BECAUSE OF DESIRE, AND THROUGH PRACTICE AND PURIFICATION, THE DESIRE COMES TO AN END AND WE NO LONGER SUFFER. I WAS GIVING A TALK TO A GROUP OF SEVENTH GRADERS IN GLENDALE AND AT THE END OF MY TALK, ONE OF THE SEVENTH GRADERS, ESMERELDA, RAISED HER HAND AND SAID, "REVEREND KUSALA, I NOW UNDERSTAND THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN PAIN AND SUFFERING. SUFFERING IS WHEN YOU DON'T WANT TO HAVE THE PAIN." YOU KNOW I WAS 30 BEFORE THAT STARTED TO DAWN ON ME AND HERE SHE IS AT 12. REALLY AMAZING.

WARREN>> YOU WORK WITH JUVENILES -- WHAT PEOPLE REFER TO AS JUVENILE DELINQUENTS --

REV. KUSALA>> -- YES.

WARREN>> -- AND I GATHER THAT BUDDHISM HAS A MESSAGE FOR THEM AND YOU THINK THAT IT HAS A HEALING QUALITY TO IT?

REV. KUSALA>> YES, AND I DON'T THINK THEY NEED TO BE A BUDDHIST TO UNDERSTAND IT. IN FACT I FEEL VERY CONFIDENT IN MY MESSAGE AND I FEEL LIKE I'M DOING A GOOD JOB, BECAUSE I HAVEN'T CONVERTED ANYBODY TO BUDDHISM. BUT HOPEFULLY THEY'RE SUFFERING JUST A LITTLE BIT LESS BECAUSE THEY'RE STARTING TO UNDERSTAND AND TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR WHAT THEY SAY AND WHAT THEY DO, AND STARTING TO SEE THE CAUSAL CONNECTION BETWEEN SPEECH, ACTION AND CONSEQUENCE.

WARREN>> WELL, ALL THIS INTEREST IN BUDDHISM IN AMERICA, WITH THE NUMBER OF CENTERS DOUBLING TWICE IN THE PAST 15 YEARS, IS THERE DEVELOPING A KIND OF AMERICAN STRAIN OF BUDDHISM THAT COMBINES OTHER STRAINS?

REV. KUSALA>> WELL IT'S STARTING TO HAPPEN NOW. IF YOU'RE A WESTERNER THOUGH YOU STILL NEED TO GO TO AN ETHNIC TEMPLE TO BE ORDAINED. I'M ORDAINED IN THE VIETNAMESE ZEN TRADITION. AS AN AMERICAN BUDDHIST, I CAN'T JUST GO TO AN AMERICAN BUDDHIST TEMPLE TO BE ORDAINED, BECAUSE THERE AREN'T ANY. I HELPED ORGANIZE THE FIFTH ANNUAL WESTERN MONASTIC CONFERENCE. THE CONFERENCE IS ALL ABOUT WESTERNERS WHO HAVE TAKEN ORDINATION IN VARIOUS BUDDHIST TRADITIONS, COMING TOGETHER AND TALKING ABOUT WHAT IT MEANS TO BE A WESTERNER AND A BUDDHIST MONK OR NUN IN AMERICA. IT'S VERY DIFFICULT FOR US, BECAUSE WE'RE SORT OF IN THIS LIMBO PERIOD HERE IN AMERICA. BUT I'D SAY WITHIN THE NEXT 20 TO 30 YEARS, WE'RE ACTUALLY GOING TO HAVE AMERICAN BUDDHISM AND IT'S GOING TO BE VERY UNIQUE.

VAL>> HOW WILL IT BE UNIQUE?

REV. KUSALA>> WELL, FIRST I THINK WE'RE GOING TO HAVE MORE EQUALITY BETWEEN ORDAINED MEN AND WOMEN -- THE BHIKKHU AND THE BHIKKHUNI -- THE MONKS AND NUNS. SECOND, I THINK WE'LL HAVE MORE DHARMA TEACHERS THAN MONASTICS. DHARMA TEACHERS ARE ORDAINED LAY BUDDHIST TEACHERS RATHER THAN FULLY ORDAINED MONKS. SO IN THE FUTURE THERE MAY BE MORE BUDDHIST MINISTERS THAN MONKS IN AMERICA. THE DIFFERENCE IN THE TWO BEING VERY MUCH LIKE THE LIFESTYLE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A PROTESTANT MINISTER AND A CATHOLIC PRIEST.

WARREN>> WHAT ABOUT YOUR RELATIONSHIP AS A VIETNAMESE BUDDHIST TO THE DALAI LAMA, WHO COMES FROM TIBET. DO YOU RECOGNIZE HIM AS A LEADER? WHAT RELATIONSHIP IS THERE BETWEEN THOSE TWO DISCIPLINES?

REV. KUSALA>> ONE OF THE THINGS ABOUT BUDDHISM, IS THAT IT'S SORT OF LIKE CHRISTIANITY IN A SENSE. THE WAY CHRISTIANS TALK ABOUT OTHER CHRISTIAN MINISTERS AND CLERGY WITH RESPECT FOR THE VARIOUS TRADITIONS THEY REPRESENT-- IN THAT SAME WAY WE HAVE GREAT RESPECT FOR THE DALAI LAMA. WE DON'T SEE ANY CONFLICT IN WHAT THE DALAI LAMA TEACHES, BECAUSE YOU CAN ALWAYS FIND THE ROOTS OF BUDDHISM IN WHAT HE SAYS. HE SPEAKS ABOUT THE FOUR NOBLE TRUTHS AND THE 12-LINK CHAIN OF CAUSATION. HE TALKS ABOUT THE TENETS OF BUDDHISM IN THE SAME WAY MY TEACHERS TALK ABOUT THEM--

WARREN>> HE CERTAINLY ALSO IS AN EXTRAORDINARY INFLUENTIAL AND FAMOUS WORLD FIGURE NOW. HAS HE BEEN GOOD, DO YOU THINK, FOR BUDDHISM IN THAT RESPECT?

REV. KUSALA>> I THINK HE'S BEEN REALLY GOOD FOR MANKIND. WHAT HE'S DONE, WHICH IS UNIQUE, IS HE ATTRACTS PEOPLE FROM ALL TRADITIONS, BUDDHIST AND OTHERWISE. I ALSO THINK SOME OF THE QUALITIES THAT HE BRINGS TO THE TABLE ARE GENEROSITY, COMPASSION AND WISDOM, AND AS HUMAN BEINGS, WE CAN ALL APPRECIATE THOSE QUALITIES.

VAL>> ARE YOU GOING TO BE INTERACTING WITH HIM PERSONALLY DURING THIS FIVE-DAY VISIT?

REV. KUSALA>> WELL, I'M GOING TOMORROW TO PASADENA TO PARTICIPATE IN SOME OF HIS TEACHINGS AND, TOMORROW EVENING, THE AMERICAN BUDDHIST CONGRESS, IS GOING TO GIVE HIM THE FIRST ANNUAL BODHI AWARD, I'LL BE THERE TOO. THIS IS BEING HELD AT THE WILSHIRE TEMPLE. WHICH AGAIN IS WHY IT'S SO MUCH FUN TO BE AROUND THE DALAI LAMA, YOU GIVE HIM THE BODHI AWARD IN A JEWISH TEMPLE AND YOU GO TO A CIVIC CENTER TO HEAR HIM TALK. HE BRINGS EVERYBODY TOGETHER.

VAL>> I'M GOING TO ASK YOU A KIND OF AN ODD QUESTION. IS IT POSSIBLE THE DALAI LAMA COULD BE PERHAPS OVER-EXPOSED OR ALMOST PUT INTO THE POSITION OF BEING A CELEBRITY WHICH, OF COURSE, IS TOTALLY CONTRARY TO HIS VALUE SYSTEM? IS THERE ANY DANGER THERE?

REV. KUSALA>> I THINK HE'S VERY AWARE OF THAT AND, WHEN PEOPLE TRY TO MAKE HIM MORE THAN HE IS, ONE OF HIS ANSWERS TO THE QUESTION, "ARE YOU LIKE THE POPE?", HE SAYS, "I AM A BUDDHIST MONK."

VAL>> THAT'S ALL HE EVER SAYS?

REV. KUSALA>> YES. AND THAT'S WONDERFUL.

VAL>> UM-HUM. IS THERE ANY DANGERS THAT YOU SEE IN TERMS OF AMERICA SYNTHESIZING BUDDHISM? IS THERE SOMETHING THAT YOU WOULD BE VERY CAUTIOUS OF, THAT YOU WOULD NOT LIKE TO SEE IN THE SYNTHESIS OF BUDDHISM IN AMERICAN CULTURE?

REV. KUSALA>> WELL, A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE TRYING TO PUT WESTERN PSYCHOLOGY IN BUDDHISM AND SIMPLY MAKE IT SOME KIND OF PHILOSOPHY. BUT IT'S MUCH MORE THAN THAT. IT CAN SIMPLY BE A PHILOSOPHY, BUT IT DOES LEAD TO THE END OF SUFFERING, SO IT HAS A SALVATION FACTOR AND IT WOULD BE CONSIDERED A RELIGION BY MOST PEOPLE THAT PRACTICE IT. I THINK, AGAIN, TYING IT TO MODERN SCIENCE IS PROBLEMATIC -- THE QUANTUM PHYSICS THING -- YOU KNOW BUDDHISM SORT OF WORKS WITH THAT. BUT THE THING ABOUT MODERN SCIENCE IS, IT'S ALWAYS EVOLVING. SO IF BUDDHISM GETS ON THE COATTAILS OF MODERN SCIENCE, EVENTUALLY IT'S GOING TO HAVE TO FALL OFF, BECAUSE SCIENCE IS GOING TO EVOLVE AND BUDDHISM IS SORT OF -- WELL IT'S BUDDHISM -- IT DOESN'T GO ANYWHERE, IT'S ABOUT UNIVERSAL TRUTH. SO I THINK THE REALLY IMPORTANT THING ABOUT BUDDHISM IS... WE NEED TO SEE IT AS PRACTICAL AND USEFUL AND AS A PATH TO THE END OF THE UNCOMFORTABLENESS OF BEING A HUMAN BEING.

WARREN>> REVEREND KUSALA, THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR BEING WITH US.

REV. KUSALA>> THANK YOU FOR INVITING ME.