KCET... Life & Times Tonight

10/04/01

VAL>> ON LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT --

JESS>> HOW DO PEOPLE OF FAITH RESPOND TO TERRORIST ACTS THAT STRIKE AT THE VERY CORE OF A NATION'S BELIEF SYSTEM?

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LEADERS OF ALL RELIGIOUS DENOMINATIONS JOINED IN A DECLARATION OF UNITY AND FAITH. WE'LL TALK WITH FOUR OF SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA'S MOST PROMINENT RELIGIOUS LEADERS.

VAL>> BUT THERE IS ANOTHER POINT OF VIEW FROM THOSE WHO BELIEVE THAT RELIGION ITSELF CREATES DIVISIONS AMONG PEOPLE OF THE WORLD.

GAY YEE>> WHEN GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS TELL PEOPLE TO PRAY OR SAY "GOD BLESS AMERICA", IT ASSUMES EVERYONE IN THE COUNTRY FEELS THE SAME WAY.

JAMES UNDERDOWN>> THESE MEN MOST VERY LIKELY ARE RELIGIOUS FANATICS, ARE RELIGIOUS FUNDAMENTALISTS FROM OTHER COUNTRIES. THEREFORE, TO BE CALLING ON RELIGION IN RESPONSE TO WHAT THEY CONSIDER TO BE A RELIGIOUS WAR, AGAIN IS COMPLETELY INAPPROPRIATE AND THROWING GAS ON THE FIRE.

JESS>> THESE STORIES COMING UP NEXT ON LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT.

LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE FOLLOWING FOUNDATIONS:

THE L.K. WHITTIER FOUNDATION
DEDICATED TO IMPROVING THE QUALITY OF LIFE BY SUPPORTING INNOVATIVE ENDEAVORS IN THE FIELDS OF MEDICINE, HEALTH, SCIENCE AND EDUCATION.

AND THE CALIFORNIA COMMUNITY FOUNDATION
UNDERWRITING THE SPANISH LANGUAGE TRANSLATION OF LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT.

VAL>> GOOD EVENING, I'M VAL ZAVALA.

JESS>> AND I'M JESS MARLOW.

TONIGHT WE'RE GOING TO TEMPORARILY DO AWAY WITH OUR REGULAR FORMAT FOR WHAT WE EXPECT TO BE AN EXTRAORDINARY CONVERSATION. WE HAVE INVITED FOUR OF SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA'S MOST PROMINENT RELIGIOUS LEADERS TO JOIN IN AN INTERFAITH DISCUSSION OF RECENT EVENTS.

VAL>> IN THE AFTERMATH OF THE TERRORIST ATTACKS, CHURCHES, TEMPLES, MOSQUES AND SYNAGOGUES HAVE BEEN FILLED WITH PEOPLE SEARCHING FOR ANSWERS. AND IN SOME INSTANCES, MANY DIFFERENT RELIGIONS HAVE JOINED IN EXPRESSION OF UNITY AS THE WORLD STANDS ON THE BRINK OF A POTENTIAL WAR AGAINST TERRORISM.

>> LET THE SOUND OF PEACE FLOW IN OUR LAND.

>> GREAT AND COMPASSIONATE BUDDHA, PLEASE GIVE THEM YOUR PRESENCE SO THAT INJURED BODY AND MIND WILL HEAL QUICKLY.

>> THE INFINITE WE RELY ON WILL GRANT US THAT SOLACE, THAT COMFORT AND THAT PEACE THAT WE ALL NEED.

>> OUR PRESENCE SPEAKS TO OUR MUTUAL DESIRES TO KEEP PEACE AND ACCEPTANCE AND APPRECIATION OF ONE ANOTHER IN OUR RESPECTIVE RELIGIONS.

JESS>> HOW DO PEOPLE OF FAITH RESPOND IN THESE UNSETTLED TIMES? WE'VE INVITED FOUR PROMINENT RELIGIOUS THINKERS TO HELP ANSWER THAT QUESTION. REVEREND ROBERT SCHULLER IS HOST OF TELEVISION'S "HOUR OF POWER" BROADCAST, PASTOR OF THE CRYSTAL CATHEDRAL IN GARDEN GROVE; DR. MAHER HATOUT IS SPOKESPERSON FOR THE ISLAMIC CENTER OF SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA AND HE IS PRESIDENT OF THE INTER-RELIGIOUS COUNCIL OF LOS ANGELES; REVEREND KUSALA, AN AMERICAN-BORN MONK WHO LIVES AND WORKS IN THE INTERNATIONAL BUDDHIST MEDITATION CENTER; AND RABBI MEYER MAY IS EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF THE SIMON WIESENTHAL CENTER AND THE MUSEUM OF TOLERANCE.

GENTLEMEN, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US HERE TODAY. THIS IS A DIFFICULT TIME FOR ALL, PARTICULARLY, I WOULD ASSUME, FOR AMERICAN-MUSLIMS. HOW HAVE THEY RESPONDED?

DR. MAHER HATOUT>> WELL, --

JESS>> -- EXCEPT IN SOME FEAR.

DR. MAHER HATOUT>> WELL, REALLY, THERE IS VERY LITTLE FEAR, BUT THERE IS SORROW AND GRIEF, MULTIPLIED BY THREE. NUMBER ONE, FOR THE DISASTER ITSELF THAT'S HITTING OUR COUNTRY. NUMBER TWO, FOR MUSLIMS WHO DIED THERE, ABOUT 800 OF THEM NOT MENTIONED. AND NUMBER THREE, FOR THE TERRIBLE IMPLICATION OF THE NAME OF OUR RELIGION IN SUCH A HEINOUS ACT. SO WE REALLY HAVE A TRIPLE WHAMMY IN THIS DISASTER.

VAL>> YOU KNOW, THE BASIC QUESTION THAT I THINK ALL RELIGIONS ARE GRAPPLING WITH IS ONE THAT'S BEEN AROUND FOR A LONG TIME AND THAT IS, HOW CAN SOMETHING SO HORRIBLE BE "ALLOWED" TO HAPPEN? IT'S THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS OF INNOCENT LIVES. WE'RE FACED WITH THIS QUESTION, AGAIN ON A MASSIVE SCALE. WHAT ARE YOU TELLING YOUR CONGREGATION?

REVEREND ROBERT SCHULLER>> I'M TELLING THEM THAT WE'RE LOOKING AT A HUMAN SITUATION. WE ARE HUMAN BEINGS AND HUMAN BEINGS ARE PERSONS, PERSONS OF FREE WILL. THEY MAKE CHOICES. THE HUMAN RACE ALWAYS HAS AND ALWAYS WILL BE MADE OF PEOPLE THAT ARE GOOD AND THAT ARE ALSO EVIL. I'VE NEVER DONE THIS BEFORE. I'M 75 YEARS OLD. TAKE ONE "O" OUT OF GOOD AND YOU HAVE A WORD SPELLED GOD. PUT A LITTLE "D" IN FRONT OF EVIL. YOU'VE GOT A WORD SPELLED DEVIL. I'VE NEVER BEEN INTO DEMONOLOGY OR THAT KIND OF THING, BUT I THINK WE ARE SEEING SOMETHING THAT CAN ONLY BE EXPLAINED BY AN ENORMOUS EVIL.

VAL>> WHICH IS HUMAN-MADE, YOU'RE SAYING? A FUNCTION OF HUMAN CHOICE. IS THAT WHAT YOU'RE SAYING?

REVEREND ROBERT SCHULLER>> WELL, THAT'S A LOT OF IT, YES, BUT I DO NOT DISCARD -- FOR THE FIRST TIME IN MY LIFE, I'M TAKING SERIOUSLY THAT EVEN AS THERE IS AN INTELLIGENCE BEHIND GOOD THAT I KNOW IS GOD, I THINK THERE IS AN INTELLIGENCE BEHIND EVIL.

VAL>> THAT'S VERY INTERESTING.

JESS>> HOW DO YOU TELL CHILDREN WHO ASK THE QUESTION HOW COULD GOD LET SOMETHING LIKE THIS HAPPEN?

RABBI MEYER MAY>> I THINK THE CHALLENGE FOR PEOPLE OR RELIGIOUS LEADERS IN GENERAL IS TO TELL CHILDREN THAT THERE IS RELIGION THAT IS GOOD AND, UNFORTUNATELY, RELIGION WHICH IS PERVERTED AND THAT THE CHALLENGE FOR US NOW IS TO UNDERSTAND HOW GOOD RELIGION CAN BE USED, CAN BE UNDERSTOOD AND CAN BE BROUGHT INTO THE LIVES OF THE YOUNG CHILDREN. I THINK THAT THAT IS AN IMPORTANT TASK AND A PRIMARY TASK THAT RELIGION THAT IS GOOD CAN BE PERVERTED, BUT THAT'S NOT WHAT WE BELIEVE IN AND THAT'S NOT WHAT WE WANT TO SAY AND WE CERTAINLY FEEL THAT RELIGION WAS HIJACKED BY THIS INCIDENT AND RELIGION HAS TO BE RETURNED TO THE PEOPLE WHO WANT TO DO GOOD.

VAL>> REVEREND KUSALA, WHAT'S THE BUDDHIST PERSPECTIVE ON THIS, WHICH WE HAVEN'T HEARD MUCH FROM?

REVEREND KUSALA>> THE BUDDHIST PERSPECTIVE WOULD BE THAT LIFE IS ULTIMATELY UNSATISFACTORY AND THIS IS AN EXAMPLE OF THAT UNSATISFACTORINESS. WE DON'T BELIEVE IN GOOD AND EVIL. RATHER, WE BELIEVE IN SKILLFUL AND UNSKILLFUL AS LEADING TO MORE SUFFERING OR LESS SUFFERING IN THE WORLD.

VAL>> REALLY? SO YOU DON'T BELIEVE THERE'S A SEPARATE FORCE, AS REVEREND SCHULLER WAS MENTIONING, OF EVIL IN THE WORLD?

REVEREND KUSALA>> NO, NO. WE WOULD SAY THE REASON THE TRAGEDY ON THAT TUESDAY OCCURRED WAS BECAUSE OF GREED, HATRED AND DELUSION.

VAL>> THAT'S INTERESTING. WHAT'S YOUR RESPONSE TO THAT?

REVEREND ROBERT SCHULLER>> MY RESPONSE TO THAT IS -- I HAVE A DIFFERENT BELIEF SYSTEM, OBVIOUSLY. I THINK THERE IS A VERY INTELLIGENCE BEHIND THIS AND WHY YOU CAN NEVER ELIMINATE GOD'S PRESENCE. THE PEOPLE SAY, "WHERE WAS GOD WHEN IT HAPPENED?" GOD WAS THE FIRST ONE ON THE SCENE. IN THE FIREMEN, IN THE POLICEMEN.

I SAW THE SITE LAST WEEK AND THE MAYOR, GIULIANI, -- I SAID, "WHAT CAN I TELL THE PEOPLE?" HE SAID, "YOU TELL THEM THAT THESE 349 FIREMEN THAT DIED IN THERE AND THE 39 POLICE OFFICERS, DR. SCHULLER, YOU TELL THEM THEY WERE NOT VICTIMS. THEY MADE SACRIFICES. THEY DID THEIR JOB. THEY CARRIED THEM ALL OUT AND THEY WENT BACK IN FOR MORE AND THEY AGAIN PULLED THEM OUT. THIS WAS GOD USING THE FIREMEN." THEN HE SAID, "DR. SCHULLER, YOU TELL THE WHOLE WORLD WHAT THE WORLD HAS NOT BEEN TOLD. THEY SACRIFICED THEIR LIVES AND THEY SAVED OVER 30,000 PEOPLE."

WHERE WAS GOD? GOD WAS IN THOSE FIREMEN, IN THE POLICEMEN, IN THE VOLUNTEERS, IN THE GIVERS OF BLOOD. I CANNOT -- I'VE NEVER FELT THE LOVE OF GOD IN THE HUMAN FAMILY LIKE I HAVE IN THIS EXPERIENCE. PEOPLE ALL OVER THE WORLD ARE CRYING. THEY'RE CRYING FOR PEOPLE THAT DIED THEY DON'T EVEN KNOW. WHAT CAUSES THIS? MYSELF, I'M CRYING. IT'S A GRIEF THAT I CAN'T EXPLAIN OTHER THAN TO SAY IT IS THE PRESENCE OF GOD THAT GIVES US SUCH TREMENDOUS COMPASSION.

JESS>> SOME ARE ALSO CRYING OUT FOR VENGEANCE, CRYING OUT FOR REVENGE. CAN YOU, AS A RELIGIOUS LEADER, SUPPORT THAT?

RABBI MEYER MAY>> REVENGE IS NOT A JEWISH CONCEPT. REVENGE IS AN ANTI-JEWISH CONCEPT. CLEARLY, THERE IS A CONCEPT OF JUSTICE AND WE SHOULD PURSUE JUSTICE. WE SHOULD PURSUE THE PERPETRATORS OF THE CRIME AND OBVIOUSLY NOT EXTRAPOLATE THESE INDIVIDUALS TO THE REST OF THE ISLAMIC COMMUNITY OR TO OTHER RELIGIONS IN GENERAL.

JESS>> MAYBE NOT REVENGE, BUT RETALIATION? WE CERTAINLY -- IN THE MIDDLE EAST AND PARTICULARLY IN THE PALESTINIAN-ISRAELI CONFLICT, WE'RE SEEING RETRIBUTION.

RABBI MEYER MAY>> WELL, CERTAINLY, THERE IS A NEED TO DEFEND OURSELVES. AMERICA HAS TO DEFEND ITSELF, ISRAEL FEELS IT HAS TO DEFEND ITSELF, AND JUSTIFIABLY SO. YOU CAN'T ALLOW CIVILIAN POPULATIONS TO BE ATTACKED AT WILL. THAT'S NOT CALLED --

JESS>> -- WHICH WE HAVE SEEN.

RABBI MEYER MAY>> -- AND THAT'S NOT CALLED REVENGE. THAT'S CALLED SELF-DEFENSE. THAT'S CALLED SELF-PRESERVATION. AND ANY DEMOCRATIC COUNTRY, ANY COUNTRY THAT HAS A COMMITMENT TO PROTECT ITS CIVILIAN POPULATION, WILL HAVE TO TAKE THAT KIND OF ACTION.

VAL>> DR. HATOUT, WHAT IS THE ISLAMIC PERSPECTIVE ON -- WE HAVE EVIL, EVIL DOES EXIST, EVIL DOES NOT, REVENGE IS PROPER, IT IS NOT. WHAT IS THE ISLAMIC VIEW?

DR. MAHER HATOUT>> DEFINITELY. WHAT THE QURAN SAID, THAT GOD CREATED DEATH AND LIFE SO THAT PEOPLE CAN BE TESTED TO SEE WHO WILL DO BETTER. THAT'S QURAN VERBATIM. SO THERE IS DEFINITELY EVIL --

VAL>> -- I'M SORRY. SAY THAT AGAIN FOR US. THE QURAN SAYS THAT GOD CREATED DEATH AND LIFE. NOT GOOD AND EVIL, BUT DEATH AND LIFE. THAT'S INTERESTING.

DR. MAHER HATOUT>> DEATH AND LIFE, SO LIFE IS A TEST. IT IS NOT AN END, IT IS NOT THE LAST CHAPTER. AS A MATTER OF FACT, IT IS THE EXAMINATION OF. IT DEPENDS ON HOW YOU PERFORM WILL BE LIFE IN ETERNITY. SO THE TEACHING OF ISLAM HERE, DEFINITELY, IS JUSTICE, SELF-RESTRAINT, IF IT IS POSSIBLE AT ALL, TO HAVE A TOUCH OF COMPASSION IN THE WHOLE PROCESS, AND NOT TO BE EXCESSIVE IN ANY WAYS. BECAUSE IF YOU ARE SO LENIENT WITH THE CRIMINAL, THIS MEANS THAT YOU ARE CRUEL TO THE VICTIM.

SO THERE IS ALWAYS A BALANCE THAT WE HAVE TO GO THROUGH. ONE OF THE PROBLEMS THAT WE MIGHT FACE IN AMERICA THAT THE RABBI TOUCHED UPON IS TO BRING IT BACK TO RELIGIOUS OVERTONES OF MUSLIM-JEWISH PROBLEM IN PALESTINE. LET US SET PALESTINE ASIDE NOW. PUT ISRAEL ASIDE.

WE HAVE AN ATTACK ON AMERICA AND I THINK MUSLIMS, CHRISTIANS AND JEWS AND ATHEISTS AND THE BUDDHISTS AND EVERY AMERICAN DECENT PERSON SHOULD LOOK INTO IT, NUMBER ONE, THAT IT DOESN'T HAPPEN AGAIN. THAT'S THE PRIORITY. NUMBER TWO, THAT THOSE WHO DID IT SHOULD BE BROUGHT TO JUSTICE. NUMBER THREE, IT CANNOT BE JUSTIFIED. NUMBER FOUR, THE ENVIRONMENT THAT ALLOWED THAT AMOUNT OF HATRED TO BE IN OUR WORLD SHOULD BE ADDRESSED.

VAL>> THAT'S PROBABLY THE ULTIMATE CHALLENGE. WE WANT TO PAUSE NOW IN OUR DISCUSSION, HOWEVER, TO CONSIDER ANOTHER POINT OF VIEW, ONE THAT YOU'VE MADE REFERENCE TO. SOME NON-BELIEVERS ACTUALLY BLAME RELIGIOUS FANATICISM FOR THE ATTACKS IN NEW YORK AND WASHINGTON. GAY YEE REPORTS ON THE SECULAR PERSPECTIVE ON THE TERRORIST CRISIS.

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GAY>> THE NATIONAL CATHEDRAL SWELLED WITH MUSIC AS MEMBERS OF OFFICIAL WASHINGTON, PAST AND PRESENT, CAME FOR A DAY OF PRAYER AND REMEMBRANCE OVER THE TERRORIST ATTACKS.

>> LET US NOW SEEK THAT ASSURANCE IN PRAYER.

GAY>> THE INTERFAITH SERVICE BROUGHT JEWISH, MUSLIM, CATHOLIC AND PROTESTANT CLERGY TOGETHER.

REVEREND BILLY GRAHAM>> ... GOD OF LOVE AND MERCY AND COMPASSION IN THE MIDST OF SUFFERING.

GAY>> BUT ONE GROUP SAYS IT FELT LEFT OUT IN THE COLD.

JAMES UNDERDOWN>> I FEEL AS BAD AS ANYONE ELSE ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED, BUT WHEN YOU SAY "REMEMBRANCE AND PRAYER", ALL OF A SUDDEN I'M MARGINALIZED.

GAY>> UNDERDOWN IS THE EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF CENTER FOR INQUIRY WEST, WHICH IS MOVING INTO ITS NEW HEADQUARTERS IN HOLLYWOOD. THE ORGANIZATION PROMOTES SCIENCE AND SECULAR HUMANISM. UNDERDOWN SAYS TEN PERCENT OF AMERICA IS SECULAR. THEY DO NOT BELIEVE IN A GOD.

JAMES UNDERDOWN>> I CERTAINLY DID NOT FEEL INCLUDED IN ANYTHING THAT WAS BEING SAID BY THE PRESIDENT OR BY ALL THESE RELIGIOUS LEADERS. THEY SEEMED TO GLOSS OVER THE FACT THAT THERE ARE MILLIONS OF NON-RELIGIOUS PEOPLE IN THIS COUNTRY, LITERALLY MILLIONS.

GAY>> MANY OF THESE ATHEISTS, AGNOSTICS AND SECULAR HUMANISTS SAY THE AFTERMATH OF THE TERRORIST ATTACKS HAS IMMERSED OUR NATION IN RELIGION WHICH, IN THEIR OPINION, ISN'T A GOOD THING. AND THEY SAY HAVING A PRESIDENT QUOTING THE BIBLE ON TV DOESN'T HELP.

PRESIDENT BUSH>> TONIGHT I ASK FOR YOUR PRAYERS FOR ALL THOSE WHO GRIEVE, FOR THE CHILDREN WHOSE WORLDS HAVE BEEN SHATTERED, FOR ALL WHOSE SENSE OF SAFETY AND SECURITY HAS BEEN THREATENED. AND I PRAY THEY WILL BE COMFORTED BY A POWER GREATER THAN ANY OF US, SPOKEN THROUGH THE AGES IN PSALM 23: "EVEN THOUGH I WALK THROUGH THE VALLEY OF THE SHADOW DEATH, I FEAR NO EVIL, FOR YOU ARE WITH ME."

HERSHL HARTMAN>> I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH CLERGYMEN CALLING UPON PEOPLE IN THEIR CONGREGATIONS OR OF THEIR FAITH OR OF ALL FAITHS TO JOIN THEM IN PRAYER. THAT'S, AFTER ALL, WHAT CLERGY DOES AND IS SUPPOSED TO DO. I HAVE A GREAT PROBLEM WHEN GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS, IN THEIR CAPACITY AS GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS, CALL UPON ME TO PRAY. THAT VIOLATES MY CONSCIENCE, IT VIOLATES THE FIRST AMENDMENT, IT VIOLATES THE SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE, WHICH IS AT THE VERY FOUNDATION OF MODERN DEMOCRACY.

GAY>> HERSHL HARTMAN IS A SECULAR JEW. HE SAYS HE DERIVES HIS JEWISH IDENTITY FROM HIS CULTURE AND HISTORY, NOT FROM RELIGIOUS RITUAL.

HARTMAN IS ALSO THE EDUCATIONAL LEADER FOR THE SHOLEM COMMUNITY. IT'S A GROUP OF NON-RELIGIOUS JEWS AND THEIR FAMILIES WHO MEET EVERY SUNDAY FOR SUNDAY SCHOOL.

LIKE PEOPLE WHO GO TO CHURCH OR SYNAGOGUE, THEY SING SONGS, THEIR CHILDREN LEARN LESSONS IN VALUES, AND HARTMAN CONDUCTS SEMINARS ON THE BIBLE, BUT FROM A SECULAR POINT OF VIEW. HE SAYS BELIEF IN GOD IS A MATTER FOR EACH PERSON TO DECIDE FOR THEMSELVES, BUT WHEN GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS TELL PEOPLE TO PRAY OR SAY "GOD BLESS AMERICA", IT ASSUMES EVERYONE IN THE COUNTRY FEELS THE SAME WAY.

HERSHL HARTMAN>> WE WOULD BE STRONGER IF WE HEARD ALL THE VARIOUS VOICES BECAUSE WISDOM AND COMFORT ARE NOT LIMITED TO THE CLERGY OF A NUMBER OF RELIGIOUS BODIES OF FAITHS. WISDOM EXISTS IN ALL KINDS OF PLACES.

GAY>> MANY SECULAR AMERICANS SAY THERE IS A MORE TROUBLING SIDE TO MIXING RELIGION WITH A WAR ON TERROR.

SECULAR HUMANISTS SAY ENCOURAGING RELIGION IS THE LAST THING OUR GOVERNMENT LEADERS OUGHT TO BE DOING, ESPECIALLY SINCE THEY SAY RELIGION IS WHAT GO US INTO THIS MESS IN THE FIRST PLACE.

JAMES UNDERDOWN>> THESE ACTS WERE BORN OF RELIGION. THESE MEN MOST VERY LIKELY ARE RELIGIOUS FANATICS, ARE RELIGIOUS FUNDAMENTALISTS FROM OTHER COUNTRIES. THEREFORE, TO BE CALLING ON RELIGION IN RESPONSE TO WHAT THEY CONSIDER TO BE A RELIGIOUS WAR, AGAIN IS COMPLETELY INAPPROPRIATE AND THROWING GAS ON THE FIRE.

GAY>> YET THE SIGNS AND SYMBOLS OF RELIGIOUS AMERICANA ARE EVERYWHERE IN THIS TRYING TIME.

PRESIDENT BUSH>> THANK YOU. GOODNIGHT AND GOD BLESS AMERICA.

GAY>> IN LOS ANGELES, I'M GAY YEE FOR LIFE AND TIMES.

JESS>> WE'LL ASK THE GENTLEMEN JOINING US HERE TO COMMENT ON THAT, BUT REVEREND KUSALA, YOU WERE NODDING IN AGREEMENT AT MUCH OF THAT.

REVEREND KUSALA>> IT MADE PERFECT SENSE TO ME. I THINK THERE NEEDS TO BE SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE. IF THERE IS ONLY ONE VOICE, SOMETIMES IT TURNS INTO A CULT. IF THERE ARE MANY VOICES, IT TURNS INTO A COMMUNITY. THERE ARE SO MANY DIFFERENT RELIGIOUS PERSPECTIVES, ESPECIALLY HERE IN LOS ANGELES, THAT TO REQUIRE SOMEONE TO PRAY IS NOT AS SKILLFUL AS IT COULD BE.

VAL>> REVEREND SCHULLER, OR ANYBODY, WHAT WAS YOUR RESPONSE?

REVEREND ROBERT SCHULLER>> WELL, THE PRESIDENT DID NOT ORDER US TO PRAY. COME ON, HE CALLED UPON US TO PRAY, BUT HE KNOWS WE'RE FREE. THERE'S NO COMPULSION TO OBEY. I THOUGHT OF SOMETHING HERE. IN 1989, I WAS BROUGHT BY A MAN NAMED ARMAND HAMMER TO MEET A MAN NAMED GORBACHEV. ARMAND HAMMER SAID TO GORBACHEV IN MY PRESENCE, "IT'S TIME THAT RUSSIA GETS SOME RELIGION." THE LEADER, GORBACHEV, TURNED THIS OVER TO THE HEAD OF [INAUDIBLE] RADIO, A MAN NAMED [INAUDIBLE], A ROARING ATHEIST, AND HE SAID, "MR. HAMMER, YOU WANT THIS SCHULLER TO PREACH OF GOD ON CHANNEL ONE? IT'S AN ATHEIST CHANNEL. HE CAN'T DO THAT." HE SAID, "WE'RE ATHEISTS. WE'VE BEEN AT IT FOR SEVENTY YEARS, INDOCTRINATING, TRAINING, TEACHING PEOPLE. ATHEISTS." AND HE PAUSED AND SAID, "BUT YOU KNOW, AS WE OBSERVE IT, THERE SEEMS TO BE SOME POSITIVE HUMAN EMOTIONS THAT ARE VERY CONSTRUCTIVE IN PERSONALITY THAT ALWAYS SEEM TO COME OUT OF RELIGIOUS CHANNELS, SO WE'RE TAKING A LOOK AT IT. YES, DR. SCHULLER CAN PREACH."

I THINK THAT'S VERY IMPORTANT. ATHEISM HAS HAD ITS TEST LIKE YOU CAN'T BELIEVE IN A LABORATORY OF SEVENTY YEARS OF INDOCTRINATION AND TRAINING. WHEN GORBACHEV WAS AT OUR CHURCH, THE NIGHT BEFORE I HAD DINNER WITH HIM AND HIS DAUGHTER, BEAUTIFUL DAUGHTER, I SAID, "ARE YOU AN ATHEIST?" SHE SAID, "OH, NO, I BELIEVE IN GOD." I SAID, "YOU DO? YOU DIDN'T GET IT FROM YOUR DAD?" NO. "YOUR MOM?" NO. "WHERE DID YOU GET IT?" "OH", SHE SAID, "IN MY HEART."

MAY I SAY ONE OTHER THING THAT I THINK IS VERY SIGNIFICANT WHEN THEY ATTACK RELIGION? ONE OF THE MEN I ADMIRE MOST IN THE WORLD BELONGS TO YOUR FAITH, THE GRAND MUFTI, [DUFARO], AND HE INVITED ME TO PREACH THE FULL SERMON IN THE MOSQUE, WHICH WAS A GREAT HONOR. HE SAID, "YOU'RE THE FIRST CHRISTIAN TO PREACH IN THE MOSQUE, DR. SCHULLER, BUT I'VE LEARNED SO MUCH." HE SAID RELIGION FALLS LIKE BEAUTIFUL RAIN FROM HEAVEN AND IT GIVES FOOD AND FRUIT AND GREEN. IT'S BEAUTIFUL. BUT THEN ALWAYS THERE ARE THE EXTREMISTS WHO COME IN ALL RELIGIONS AND THEY POISON THE WATER UNTIL YOU DON'T DARE TO DRINK IT.

VAL>> RABBI MAY, HOW DID YOU RESPOND TO THE TAPE AND THE THOUGHT THAT IT'S RELIGIOUS FANATICISM AT THE ROOT OF THIS PROBLEM? 

JESS>> PARTICULARLY THE SECULAR JEWS.

VAL>> YES.

RABBI MAY>> THAT'S THE BEAUTY OF AMERICA. THE BEAUTY OF AMERICA IS THAT A PERSON CAN HAVE A VIEW WHICH IS A DISSENTING VIEW AND ALSO THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES CAN HAVE A VIEW THAT HE'S A RELIGIOUS PERSON.

VAL>> BUT DID YOU AGREE THAT IT'S ALL RIGHT FOR THE CLERGY TO CALL ON AMERICANS TO PRAY, BUT IT'S NOT OKAY FOR GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS? WHAT DID YOU THINK OF THAT IDEA?

RABBI MAY>> I THINK THAT THE PRESIDENT WAS RALLYING AMERICA AND USED BROAD TERMS. HE WANTED TO GIVE HOPE, HE WANTED TO GIVE SOLACE. THERE ARE SO MANY BEAUTIFUL QUOTATIONS WITHIN THE SCRIPTURE. HE CHOSE ONE. HE WAS RALLYING THE NATION. HE'S ENTITLED TO FEEL HIS RELIGION AND TO INVOKE HIS OWN RELIGION AS AN AMERICAN AT A TIME WHEN SO MUCH IS REQUIRED OF HIM AS THE LEADER. AND AT THE SAME TIME, I THINK THAT IT'S FAIR FOR OTHERS TO FEEL THAT THEY DON'T HAVE TO HAVE A PART OF RELIGION. BUT IT DOESN'T MEAN THAT AMERICA SPOKE LESS BECAUSE THE PRESIDENT SPOKE OF RELIGION.

THERE'S ONE OTHER POINT WHICH I THINK IS VERY CRUCIAL HERE. THIS WASN'T A TERRORIST ATTACK FROM PEOPLE WHO HAD A DIFFERENT RACE OR CREED AGAINST AMERICA. THIS WAS AN ATTACK BY RADICAL FANATICS REPRESENTING A RELIGION. WHAT THE PRESIDENT WAS SAYING WAS THAT ALL RELIGIONS, ISLAM AND OTHER RELIGIONS, ARE NOT REPRESENTED BY THAT. BECAUSE RELIGION WAS UNDER FIRE BECAUSE THESE WERE RELIGIOUS FANATICS, THAT'S WHY THE PRESIDENT MOVED FORTHRIGHTLY AND FORCEFULLY TO DEFEND RELIGION AND PROTECT RELIGION BECAUSE IT'S NOT RELIGION THAT DID THIS. THEY WERE RELIGIOUS FANATICS THAT DID THIS.

JESS>> AND AS REVEREND SCHULLER SAID, THERE ARE EXTREMISTS IN ALL RELIGIONS, FANATICS IN ALL RELIGIONS, RADICALS IN ALL RELIGIONS, BUT THAT DOES NOT TARNISH RELIGION AS A WHOLE.

DR. MAHER HATOUT>> I'D LIKE TO ADD SOMETHING HERE. NUMBER ONE, I HATE FOR ANYONE TO BE A RELIGIOUS FANATIC, BUT ALSO, WORSE WOULD BE AN ATHEIST FANATIC. THIS IS A DEMOCRACY AND THE GOVERNMENT IS SUPPOSED TO REPRESENT THE MAJORITY WITHOUT ENCROACHING ON THE RIGHT OF THE MINORITY. IT'S OUR ABC'S OF DEMOCRACY. IT HAPPENS THAT, IN THIS COUNTRY, 75 PERCENT AT LEAST BELIEVE IN A RELIGION. IT IS ONLY EXPECTED THAT THE CALLING ON THOSE PEOPLE WOULD HAVE RELIGIOUS OVERTONES. THE PROBLEM WOULD HAPPEN, IF THE ATHEIST GENTLEMAN WANTS TO TALK AND I TELL HIM TO SHUT UP. THAT WOULD BE WRONG. THIS WOULD NOT BE AMERICA. THIS IS NUMBER ONE. 

NUMBER TWO, THE POINT THAT HE RAISED THAT RELIGION BROUGHT US TO THIS MESS. SO YOU USE RELIGION AGAIN SO THERE WOULD BE NO -- I DON'T THINK SO BECAUSE, AS THE RABBI SAID, THIS IS NOT RELIGION THAT CAUSED THE MESS. IF I APPLY THE SAME LOGIC, LET US NEVER TALK ABOUT DEMOCRACY BECAUSE TWENTY MILLION PEOPLE WERE KILLED IN THE NAME OF DEMOCRACY IN SECOND WORLD WAR. LET US NOT TALK ABOUT FRATERNITY AND EQUITY AND LIBERTY BECAUSE THE FRENCH REVOLUTION KILLED SO MANY PEOPLE IN THE NAME OF THESE PRINCIPLES. I DON'T KNOW WHY WE WOULD PICK ON RELIGION, WHICH IS OUR ONLY HOPE, BECAUSE EVERYBODY AGREES THAT TO CHANGE THE COURSE OF EVENTS, IT IS IN THE HEARTS OF PEOPLE. THE HEARTS OF PEOPLE IS VISITED BY RELIGION, NOT BY POLITICS OR --

VAL>> -- WE HAVE JUST A COUPLE OF MINUTES, SO I DO WANT TO GET PEOPLES' THOUGHTS. HAS THIS EVENT CHANGED US IN OUR RELATIONSHIP TO OUR FAITH PERMANENTLY, DO YOU THINK?

REVEREND KUSALA>> I THINK THE REAL CHALLENGE THAT WE FIND WITH THE TRAGEDY IS THE CHALLENGE OF CLERGY INTERPRETING THE EVENTS FOR THE HEART. WE HAVE GOVERNMENT INTERPRETING, WE HAVE CITY OFFICIALS INTERPRETING, BUT THE CLERGY NOW IS INTERPRETING FOR THE HEART. AND IF THE HEART IS CLOSED, WE'VE LOST A WONDERFUL OPPORTUNITY TO RECONNECT WITH THE WORLD AROUND US.

JESS>> TWO CLERGYMEN, AS A MATTER OF FACT, WHO INTERPRETED IT. THEY INTERPRETED IT, JERRY FALWELL AND PAT ROBERTSON, AS BEING GOD'S PUNISHMENT OF AMERICA FOR HOMOSEXUALITY, FOR SECULARISM AND OTHER SUCH SINS.

DR. MAHER HATOUT>> I THINK THIS IS BELITTLING GOD ALMIGHTY.

REVEREND ROBERT SCHULLER>> IT TRULY IS. IT BELITTLES GOD ALMIGHTY. IT'S TRAGIC, IT'S PATHETIC, IT'S DEPLORABLE. MAY I SAY HOW THIS AFFECTED ME? I THINK, FOR AT LEAST 2,000 YEARS, ALL RELIGIONS DEFINE THEIR OWN FAITH. THEN THEY TRY TO INDOCTRINATE PEOPLE TO BELIEVE IN IT. THEN THEY TRY TO MOTIVATE THE INDOCTRINATED PEOPLE TO WIN CONVERTS TO WHAT IS REALLY TRUE. THAT'S BEEN THE GOAL OF RELIGIONS. THAT'S GOT TO GO DOWN INTO DUST AND WE HAVE TO SEE HOW CAN WE HELP EACH OTHER, RESPECT EACH OTHER, LOVE EACH OTHER, BE PARTNERS TO EACH OTHER. IN A PRIVATE CLASSROOM, IF YOU WANT TO TALK ABOUT DIFFERENT FAITHS, OKAY.

VAL>> REVEREND SCHULLER, THANK YOU SO MUCH. IT WILL HAVE TO BE THE LAST WORD, BUT THANK YOU AGAIN.

JESS>> REVEREND SCHULLER OF THE CRYSTAL CATHEDRAL; DR. MAHER HATOUT OF THE SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA ISLAMIC CENTER; REVEREND KUSALA OF THE INTERNATIONAL BUDDHIST MEDITATION CENTER; RABBI MEYER MAY OF THE WIESENTHAL CENTER, THANK YOU ALL FOR BEING WITH US.

VAL>> THANK YOU SO MUCH. THAT'S OUR PROGRAM FOR THIS EVENING. HAVE A WONDERFUL EVENING. TAKE CARE.